Friday Five Interview – Bill Giovanetti

A few months ago, through mutual friends and/or Facebook, I had the privilege of meeting Bill Giovanetti, Senior Pastor of Neighborhood Church in Northern California. I began reading his blog and then I had the privilege of reviewing his book, How to Keep Your Inner Mess from Trashing Your Outer World. I found it to be a powerful book on the inner life of a Christian, one of the best I have read in a long time. Bill really gets it when it comes to the two natures, sin in the life of a believer, and the crippling effect of religious legalism.

Bill and I have chatted via email and Facebook since I’ve read his book and I discovered that his ministry roots originate here in the Chicago area.

1) I found Inner Mess to be one of the most thorough works on the inner life I have read in some time. You honestly laid out there what the struggles of a Christian look like. How long was this book forming in your mind?

The Inner Mess book began over 10 years ago, after I first preached a series on it. My church in Chicago responded so enthusiastically, I realized I’d struck a chord. I was speaking about real-life struggles in a deeply biblical way. I also realized that the church has largely gotten away from teaching on the inner life. There used to be steady stream of books on “victorious Christian living” and “the exchanged life” and “the walk of faith.” But that stream has dried up. Maybe it’s our generation’s preoccupation with doing stuff and being practical. I’m not sure. But I do know that followers of Jesus cannot experience his life flowing through us unless we know how to deal with our flesh (our Inner Mess), and how to walk in faith.

When I first started writing, I was clueless. My best friends told me it was boring. I was so crushed, I didn’t touch it for years.  An author friend dragged me to a writer’s conference and taught me how to make it engaging and funny. So the Inner Mess was a book over a decade in the making.  God used that delay to teach me more about the life of faith, and to deepen my understanding of how the “dark side” called the flesh works within our personalities.
2) Why do you think there is so much confusion out there on the teaching of the old/new natures?

Confusion in the church always stems from lack of clarity in the pulpits. Too many of us pastors have not worked through a systematic answer to the question: How to people change and become like Christ? Instead of helping people change from the inside out, we tell them what changes to make on the outside.  That’s fine, and I’m all for practical preaching. But when we keep giving our people the practices of the Christian life, without instructing them in the supernatural resources that fuel those practices, haven’t we become legalists?  Whenever we decouple the duties of a Christian from the supernatural power of Christ in us, we wind up whipping people into obedience through duty, guilt, and shame.

These three horsemen of doom rile up our flesh. Instead of walking in the Spirit, we’re trying to live Christianly in the power of the flesh. It doesn’t work. Jesus, in his earthly life, drew on the power of the Father and the Spirit; we need to do the same. We need preachers to explain how this works, and exactly what the Bible says.  Every new generation needs to understand HOW to activate the life of Christ within us; HOW to walk in the Spirit; and how to rise above the dictates of the flesh.  That’s why I wrote the book.

When they hear the word “flesh” most Christians think, “sex, drugs, rock ‘n roll.”  But the flesh is so much deeper and more pervasive. We need to think of self-righteousness, self-centeredness, gossip, shame, self-hatred, shallowness, the love of money, and all the stuff that sabotages our relationships and makes God feel a million miles away. Jesus said, “You cannot serve God and materialism” and Paul said, “If you are in the flesh, you cannot please God.”  They didn’t say it was hard; they said it was impossible.  Yet millions of sincere, but uninformed, Christ-followers scurry out every day to do the impossible by human power alone.  Yikes! We need a revival of teaching on the Inner Life.
3) One of the things that struck me was the way you said, towards the end of the book, that our biggest struggle every day is not with sin, but with unbelief. I had never thought of it that way. Explain why this is true.

You cannot fight sin and win. But Christ can. He is in you to do exactly that. He indwells you and lives in you that he might reproduce his character within your life… That he might add color to your personality, and make you the most awesome you imaginable.  Your primary challenge becomes, not to wrestle down the sin that so easily tempts you, but to unleash the power of Christ within you.  That is a struggle of faith.

Faith itself is a great struggle. It is not simply a passive nod to an abstract truth. It is, rather, a profound YES to the person of Christ who, by his Spirit, indwells you. You have to “sic him” on the temptation.  Not you alone, but you plus Christ. Christ becomes at home in your heart by faith. We walk by faith. When you face a big temptation — say sexually or morally — in that moment, your crying need is to believe that Jesus will be who he said he would be in you.  To trust him enough to act as if his Word is true, and then to behave accordingly.   Your enemy isn’t as much the sin, it’s the unbelief that will result in you caving in to the sin.

If you set yourself to fight sin, you’re going to lose. You are, in essence, fighting the flesh by the power of the flesh — a losing plan for sure. Only the Spirit of Christ can overcome sin. By faith, you must keep letting Christ be Christ in you. That’s the fight of faith. That’s why faith IS the victory.

Our job is faith, especially in temptation. God’s job is outcomes.

4) You grew up around some prominent evangelicals, like Dr. Lance Latham with Awana and Northside Gospel Center. Also it seems Dr. Erwin Lutzer of Moody Church has had in influence. What did these guys do for your theology and your ministry?

I entered full time ministry in 1979 as the children’s pastor at the birthplace of Awana. The people who started Awana were still there and I learned a lot from them. Lance Latham taught me the gospel of grace. I once asked him how so many friends of mine said they believed in Jesus, but I knew they weren’t saved. He clarified it for me.  He said, “Bill, where is there hope for eternity?” That crystallized the gospel for me. It was Lance and Virginia (his wife) who planted the seed of church planting in my mind. I was driving them to O’Hare airport and we somehow got on the subject, and Virginia said that planting a church was so much easier, because “You avoid a lot of conflict.”  Windy City Community Church grew out of that conversation — the wonderful church I planted and pastored for 16 years. Basically, whatever Scripture I know today, I learned as an Awana kid.  I cut my ministry teeth at the North Side Gospel Center and am forever grateful for those people. The gospel of grace became by bread and butter.

Erwin Lutzer and I, along with Ed Peecher, led a prayer ministry for pastors in Chicago together. That was a highlight for me. Erwin is an amazing Bible teacher, and an encourager. He taught me that a pastor can go deep into the Word and broad into the world at the same time.

These influencers, and others, firmly embedded GRACE at the core of my theology. Want to know what I feel about legalism?  Hatred. Pure hatred. I can’t stand it, and the slightest hint of it sets off all kinds of alarms inside me. Either we live by grace through faith, by the power of Christ himself, or we’re just faking it. Even worse, we beat people down by erecting a standard no unaided human can achieve. We need the good news of grace, not the bad news of human effort, legalism, duty, and trying to please people instead of Christ.

5) You pastored in Chicago and now you pastor in California. What’s the difference and do you miss Lou Malnati’s deep dish and Portillos Italian Beef?

Next to moving away from a lifetime and family and friends, I miss Chicago food the most.  The upside is that Lou Malnati’s and Portillo’s both ship their food all over the US! So even Californians can indulge. We usually have a Lou Malnati’s pizza in the freezer for an emergency. They make great gifts too, and you can send me a package care of my church!




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4 Comments

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    July 9, 2010 at 9:29 am

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  2. Erica Jennings says:
    July 10, 2010 at 7:45 am

    Hi Pastor Bill:

    Perhaps I should first tell you I am Kathy Stockton's, Mom and a certain Paul's Mom-in-Law…and that fact has required a 'goodly bit' of "grace" (fleshly? Holy Spirit?) to endure at times! But we love them both – although I do wonder about the latter of the two, at times…ahem!

    Today Kathy's dad and I were introduced to a young man who will, in all likelihood, become the husband of a young lady that I "adopted" as "granddaughter" after her 2 close friends (our blood granddaughters) moved to OK and TX. I've tried to keep our relationship with Kayla on a strong, yet certainly not a smothering footing. Her new guy, Eric, is really nice; my husband and I both liked him. He's a 21-yr old Camp Pendleton Marine. His own upbringing plus his Marine training has made him into a "man's man" type of footing, plus many other aspects which go together to make him seem to be a nice, pleasant young man to meet. He is not a guy whose eyes are darting from one thing to another; i.e., he looks a person in the eye when he is in a conversation with another. Kayla is a Christian, 20 yrs old, raised in a strong Christian family, all of whom worship at Calvary Chapel ("Revival") at Menifee, CA. Her older brother serves on staff at this church. Kayla's 15-yr old brother passed away in early January 2010 from a severe rare disease which caused him had severe, excrutiating physical pain for almost all his life. Through this illness and after his death, we realized just what a remarkable family Kayla is a member of. They are strong in the Lord, and have dealt with Colyn's last illness and death in what appears to anchored in a strength not acquired at the last minute. He had been in and out of Los Angeles Children's Hospital so MANY times over the years that he was almost like "the "revered senior citizen" of the unit…He was even featured in a promotional video shown on local TV stations, as a spokesman for LA Children's. His mother still maintains his Facebook page. Many of Colyn's writings are on his Facebook site. His mother is planning to publish a book, primarily of the spiritual writings of her son, Colyn. [continued in the next segment]

    In Christ,
    Erica "Risa" Jennings
    24600 Mountain Ave Spc 48
    Hemet, CA 92544

  3. Erica Jennings says:
    July 10, 2010 at 7:50 am

    [Continued from "Risa" Jennings]

    Kayla has truly struggled over many issues, which I've gleaned through many one on one conversations in the time we've become close friends. [Shhh, don't tell anyone, but I'm 73 and there is a bit of an age difference with the two of us...] One thing I've come to realize, much of Kayla's emotional pain and issues are because the parents, by necessity, were intensely wrapped up in the medical care for this young man. Colyn, himself, was a stalwart MAN of faith…a giant in the faith, at age 15, and by his strong faith, he was uplifting to me, even. I feel privileged to have known him, however brief our friendship was. But Kayla had felt, in the past, that she didn't know if she even mattered anymore, especially to her parents. I am confident she gets it now, however.

    Back to Eric, and their visit today. They had only been here a few minutes when (appropriately or inappropriately???) I asked him whether he is a Christian. If he was taken "aback" by my question, or not, he didn't "flinch". He launched into the typical dialog that indicated to me he is in a serious searching mode. When I mentioned your book which Kathy sent to us, by the way, and which is the subject of this blog. I had grabbed the book and showed it to him, he knew your name, and pronounced correctly for me (a-hem!), however he said he has "issues" with what you "teach" "preach"…i.e.; he HAS listened to you on whatever Christian radio station airs your program in Southern California your sermons, etc. that can be found here. (We live in Hemet, CA…and yes we did feel the LATEST earthquake, very strongly.) Eric is positively tuned in; when I asked him about his association with Christ, church, etc., he explained that his parents took him to "a few churches" and explained it was his choice of where he wanted to go, or not…Wow – very 'responsible' parents, yeah. I shared my own personal salvation experience, and how I came to Christ. NEVER have I gone into such a conversation that early in a relationship with anyone. [continued on next segment E.Jennings]

  4. Erica Jennings says:
    July 10, 2010 at 8:24 am

    [from Erica "Risa" Jennings] I've known the Lord since Feb 1966. It has never been a habit of mine to immediately launch in the "attack mode" and pinpoint a person, and almost as a "rule of thumb," I've not felt it right to launch into such a topic, so quickly after initially meeting a person. It felt like a "Don't flinch from this!" sort of 'nudge'…and that's the only way I can describe this almost unnerving experience, personally to me, in retrospect. But ironically, I needed to show Kayla something a few minutes later in our visit, and while in another part of the house, apologized to her for embarrassing her — her telltale blush said that! She said that EVERYWHERE she has taken him to meet family or close friends, the subject has come up, very similarly! I asked if she didn't find that sort of "strange"…I didn't phrase it as "somewhat of a God thing"…and I even wonder, myself. She did say that she just felt like saying "Okay everyone, enough is enough – so just back off and leave him alone". Frankly, in retrospect, it would seem something outside me, anyway – I can't speak for her actual family – but it does bring food for thought to mind. I know this is not the first and last time we have met him. I think they are headed for marriage. He said he has more Marine training (missile defense, and to be trained on a new missile the Marines will be firing off…training in that technology, etc.), plus other things…and he said with all that he will be non-deployable for about a year, from now, at least, or thereabouts. That will be enough time for their plans for marriage. Kayla says they have discussed the matter, as I had already sensed was "in the works". I know I have belabored the whole story to a GREAT extent, and for that I apologize…and no, I did not drag and drag and drag Eric through tons and tons of stuff. His eyes never seemed to leave my face…it seemed to say "intense interest". I don't know better how to deal with anything of this nature. I've had experience with leading friends to Christ, but I didn't feel the Lord was leading me to an avenue of that issue with Eric at this time. He is positively searching to know "this" or "that"…he has been approaching Christianity like choosing whether to buy this camera, or that one – and what are the salient factors of each…and is this one going to be what I need it to be…etc. etc.

    Please put Eric Doerer and Kayla Woods on your prayer list…certainly Kayla needs direction. I told him his search is from a intellectual approach, and that Jesus himself said if we don't come the Kingdom as a little child, we simply won't get there. I had to find the passage tonight, and thank goodness for parallel harmony of the gospels, I was able to locate what I'd quoted to him this afternoon. Mark 10:15 is the nugget that I could not have glibly located at the time. I explained that the element of faith Jesus meant was faith as a little trusting child. Wonderfully, I had shown them some photos of our little 19-month old great-grandson being tossed back and forth between his daddy and his uncle, and the look of total trust on his face that showed not one shred of fear. It was a good place to end the discussion – because Eric is doing all this back and forth discussion between the issues within his own mind. It is my prayer that if he and Kayla do marry – they have discussed marriage – that he does come to Christ first. I feel certain we will continue to have a relationship with Eric with and through Kayla, since we're friends with her parents, as well. Any suggestions, or whatever, I would certainly appreciate. And by the way – I know Kathy would say "I'm sure my mother wrote a BOOK!" That's an honest statement, true and valid, as you would assure her!

    By the way – since I'm on your Facebook "friends" list, I will be watching for your blog each week! Thank you so much for a great blog! [Erica "Risa" Jennings]